Wisconsin Fly Fishing Forums - There was no way to predict this

Sasquatch WFFP Moderator Offline Former , former, former, former member. Posts: 3037 I'm right behind you. Gender:	There was no way to predict this Nov 1^st, 2019 at 9:16am http://www.cnn.com/2019/10/31/us/keystone-pipeline-leak-trnd/index.html 9000 barrels only.
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Zed Dragon Fly Offline Zur Vergeltung Posts: 1598 Wankersville Gender:	Re: There was no way to predict this Reply #1 - Nov 1^st, 2019 at 11:01am From the very mouth of Kaptain F.I.G.J.A.M. : "....complete the pipe line with efficiency and speed...going to be an incredible pipeline. Greatest technology known to man (or woman)." I am utterly re-assured.
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tannin Dragon Fly Offline On Wisconsin! Posts: 1199	Re: There was no way to predict this Reply #2 - Nov 1^st, 2019 at 6:45pm It lasted a whole 9 years before it leaked. Wow.
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Further North

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #3 - Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm

Stepping back from this...

What are the ways to move the oil?

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

...and then what are the alternatives that are the most environmentally safe?

What turns my crank on stuff like this is that the costs of that spill were not factored into the overall costs of delivering energy where it needs to be. There's always somebody...some group...sweeping true total costs under the rug so they can make more money...

With stuff like this, and sand mines, and everything else...it's not a matter of if there's going to be a failure, it's when. Long term costs, health risks and environmental damage are buried...or glossed over because we've got no idea what they are, most of the time.

...so build that into the front end, be honest with people, and then let people vote with teir dollars. The risky stuff will go away...unless we let areas with dense populations who don't give a rip about the places where the problems will happen control the discussion...

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tannin

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #4 - Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:13pm

Further North wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm:

Stepping back from this...

What are the ways to move the oil?

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

...and then what are the alternatives that are the most environmentally safe?

What turns my crank on stuff like this is that the costs of that spill were not factored into the overall costs of delivering energy where it needs to be. There's always somebody...some group...sweeping true total costs under the rug so they can make more money...

With stuff like this, and sand mines, and everything else...it's not a matter of if there's going to be a failure, it's when. Long term costs, health risks and environmental damage are buried...or glossed over because we've got no idea what they are, most of the time.

...so build that into the front end, be honest with people, and then let people vote with teir dollars. The risky stuff will go away...unless we let areas with dense populations who don't give a rip about the places where the problems will happen control the discussion...

I'm sure they considered the cost they'd have to pay in the event (or eventuality) of a leak when they decided to build it. The cost that they pay, or the taxpayers pay, or that anyone pays, won't make it as though the spill never happened. There are some things you can't put a dollar value on.

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« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:13pm by tannin »

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Further North

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #5 - Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:59pm

tannin wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:13pm:

Further North wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm:

Stepping back from this...

What are the ways to move the oil?

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

...and then what are the alternatives that are the most environmentally safe?

What turns my crank on stuff like this is that the costs of that spill were not factored into the overall costs of delivering energy where it needs to be. There's always somebody...some group...sweeping true total costs under the rug so they can make more money...

With stuff like this, and sand mines, and everything else...it's not a matter of if there's going to be a failure, it's when. Long term costs, health risks and environmental damage are buried...or glossed over because we've got no idea what they are, most of the time.

...so build that into the front end, be honest with people, and then let people vote with teir dollars. The risky stuff will go away...unless we let areas with dense populations who don't give a rip about the places where the problems will happen control the discussion...

I'm sure they considered the cost they'd have to pay in the event (or eventuality) of a leak when they decided to build it. The cost that they pay, or the taxpayers pay, or that anyone pays, won't make it as though the spill never happened. There are some things you can't put a dollar value on.

You're right...I wrote that poorly. I'm sure they considered the costs...and then buried them.

...and yes, there are things we can't put a price on...or shouldn't.

But we - all of us together - seem to do it all the time, regardless.

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..¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸ ><((((°<

Bass inhale. Trout Sip. The musky bites.
-Tom Hazelton

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tannin

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #6 - Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 5:02pm

Further North wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:59pm:

tannin wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2019 at 12:13pm:

Further North wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm:

Stepping back from this...

What are the ways to move the oil?

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

...and then what are the alternatives that are the most environmentally safe?

What turns my crank on stuff like this is that the costs of that spill were not factored into the overall costs of delivering energy where it needs to be. There's always somebody...some group...sweeping true total costs under the rug so they can make more money...

With stuff like this, and sand mines, and everything else...it's not a matter of if there's going to be a failure, it's when. Long term costs, health risks and environmental damage are buried...or glossed over because we've got no idea what they are, most of the time.

...so build that into the front end, be honest with people, and then let people vote with teir dollars. The risky stuff will go away...unless we let areas with dense populations who don't give a rip about the places where the problems will happen control the discussion...

I'm sure they considered the cost they'd have to pay in the event (or eventuality) of a leak when they decided to build it. The cost that they pay, or the taxpayers pay, or that anyone pays, won't make it as though the spill never happened. There are some things you can't put a dollar value on.

You're right...I wrote that poorly. I'm sure they considered the costs...and then buried them.

...and yes, there are things we can't put a price on...or shouldn't.

But we - all of us together - seem to do it all the time, regardless.

Yes, we do.

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #7 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:02am

Further North wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm:

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

The alternatives are by tanker or rail. But those are more expensive than a pipeline.

It's unfortunate that it happened, but the reality is "we" are part of the problem. Nobody here is going to give up their cars or any other products that use gas and oil.

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GerardH

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #8 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:06am

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:02am:

Further North wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2019 at 8:05pm:

I'm not saying the pipeline was, or is, the best, or even good...but what are the alternatives?

The alternatives are by tanker or rail. But those are more expensive than a pipeline.

It's unfortunate that it happened, but the reality is "we" are part of the problem. Nobody here is going to give up their cars or any other products that use gas and oil.

Those aren't much of an alternate -- oil hauled by rail has been known to derail and spill as well as tanker trucks getting into crashes. The difference is that it's a contained volume versus the pipeline continuing to leak until it's detected and shut off.

The reality is that we have to reduce our reliance on petroleum...which is being set back by the current administration.

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #9 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:17am

GerardH wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:06am:

Those aren't much of an alternate -- oil hauled by rail has been known to derail and spill as well as tanker trucks getting into crashes. The difference is that it's a contained volume versus the pipeline continuing to leak until it's detected and shut off.

But they are the only 2 alternates. And more expensive than transport by pipeline, so pipeline will be always be the first choice.

Quote:

The reality is that we have to reduce our reliance on petroleum...

Let's be realistic here. That ain't happening. Petroleum tops the list for fueling transportation around the globe and is used in the manufacturing of everyday products we all use and buy.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2019/11/04/the-future-is-bright-for-cloud-based...

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« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:17am by Jizzy Pearl »

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GerardH

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #10 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:35am

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:17am:

GerardH wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:06am:

Those aren't much of an alternate -- oil hauled by rail has been known to derail and spill as well as tanker trucks getting into crashes. The difference is that it's a contained volume versus the pipeline continuing to leak until it's detected and shut off.

But they are the only 2 alternates. And more expensive than transport by pipeline, so pipeline will be always be the first choice.

So what's your point? That's pretty much what I had already said -- reliance on pipelines will continue.

Quote:

The reality is that we have to reduce our reliance on petroleum...

Quote:

Let's be realistic here. That ain't happening. Petroleum tops the list for fueling transportation around the globe and is used in the manufacturing of everyday products we all use and buy.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2019/11/04/the-future-is-bright-for-cloud-based...

Let's be realistic here -- world demand slumped and a glut developed as more renewable energy sources came online in recent years. The oil industry fights renewable energy tooth and nail because they see the handwriting on the wall.

Anyone can cherry-pick their "facts" off the web...

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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #11 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:54am

I didn't see where you stated that you thought rail and tanker transport were cheaper. I made the assumption that you were implying they were. My bad.

Yes more renewable energy sources have come online in recent years, but use of petroleum still outweighs all other energy sources and that isn't going to change anytime soon regardless of which administration is in power.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40013

And I'm not going to bitch about it...that would be hypocritical on my part because I'm part of the problem. I'm not going to stop driving my V8 trucks or stop using any other devices that use petroleum such as lawn mowers, ice augers, chain saws etc.

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« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2019 at 10:05am by Jizzy Pearl »

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GerardH

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #12 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 10:07am

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 9:54am:

I didn't see where you stated that you thought rail and tanker transport were cheaper. I made the assumption that you were implying they were. My bad.

Yes more renewable energy sources have come online in recent years, but use of petroleum still outweighs all other energy sources and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40013

I'll agree to that point -- that will be the case for years to come. But their share on the world market is slipping by a couple percentage points -- which is huge when they expect to be expanding, particularly as China and India continue to develop their middle class. It's also difficult for the petroleum to increase pricing barring a political or natural disaster with overproduction and reduced demand. It's predicted there will be a 10% reduction on the reliance of petroleum over the next decade and if we weren't backtracking on the previous administration's efficiency mandates, it probably would be accelerate a bit. Witness what's happening with coal as we move towards natural gas and wind/solar for electrical.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-technology-demand/cheaper-renewables-t...

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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #13 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 10:36am

I don't believe electric cars and wind/solar will put a big dent in oil use. And in some studies I have read, the energy to create an electric car at the front end offsets any perceived benefits we may think there are in the long run.

In addition the petrochemical industry, heavy equipment industry, aviation industry and other transport methods are largely insulated from fuel switching.

This article published yesterday indicates more oil is coming whether the world needs it or not...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/energy-environment/oil-supply.html

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GerardH

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Re: There was no way to predict this
Reply #14 - Nov 4^th, 2019 at 12:28pm

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Nov 4^th, 2019 at 10:36am:

I don't believe electric cars and wind/solar will put a big dent in oil use. And in some studies I have read, the energy to create an electric car at the front end offsets any perceived benefits we may think there are in the long run.

In addition the petrochemical industry, heavy equipment industry, aviation industry and other transport methods are largely insulated from fuel switching.

This article published yesterday indicates more oil is coming whether the world needs it or not...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/energy-environment/oil-supply.html

The energy required to manufacture an electric vehicle is about 15% more (Nissan Leaf) than an internal combustion vehicle -- the difference is in the lithium battery, but it will still realize a 51% lifetime emissions savings. A Tesla is much higher (64% more emissions than a gasoline version) but it will have a 53% lifetime emissions savings.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emiss
ions-953

You're correct about the oil used for the petrochemical industry, but that's a small percentage overall. 74% of US petroleum in 2018 was used for fuel in one form or another (gasoline, diesel, heating oil, etc.).

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=41&t=6

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« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2019 at 12:32pm by GerardH »

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )

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