https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/alarming-catch-why-yellowstone-is-worried-about-this-fish/ar-AAUTKHF?li=BBnb7Kz

Saw that, wondering if that was a wayward fish from the Missouri or a newly established resident population.  Not a biologist, but I would think most if not all streams in the Yellowstone ecosystem would be inhospitable to bass...it's really unusual to see smallies even in WI trout streams unless there's a warming issue and this is their native range.

But it is a concern....

GerardH wrote on Mar 10^th, 2022 at 12:48pm:

Saw that, wondering if that was a wayward fish from the Missouri or a newly established resident population.  Not a biologist, but I would think most if not all streams in the Yellowstone ecosystem would be inhospitable to bass...it's really unusual to see smallies even in WI trout streams unless there's a warming issue and this is their native range. But it is a concern....

I had a similar thought the other day. In West (By God) Virginia, it was fairly common to see smallies in trout streams, particularly in places that were near a lake or larger river. The part of WV I was in was in their native range (the Potomac is not).

Smallies can be pretty voracious - it could be quite an issue, particularly as has happened in the last few years, the streams warm in the summer (particularly if they have lakes or other places to retreat to).

JGF wrote on Mar 10^th, 2022 at 1:14pm:

I had a similar thought the other day. In West (By God) Virginia, it was fairly common to see smallies in trout streams, particularly in places that were near a lake or larger river. The part of WV I was in was in their native range (the Potomac is not).

I've never fished out East and I'm basing this only on my reading, so please correct me if I'm wrong -- but it seems many of the trout rivers out there with smallies are marginal for trout and rely on stocking to provide a cold water fishery.  The streams that have good self-sustaining trout populations tend to be smaller mountain streams for the most part.  Again, I could be wrong on that assumption.





JGF wrote on Mar 10^th, 2022 at 1:14pm:

Smallies can be pretty voracious - it could be quite an issue, particularly as has happened in the last few years, the streams warm in the summer (particularly if they have lakes or other places to retreat to).

Yes, I know in spring ponds in NE WI and the UP, illegal stockings of bass wiped out native brook trout that were likely in those ponds since the retreat of the last glacier.

Over the years I have caught smallmouth bass, northern, walleye and pumpkin seed in my local trout stream.  Probably WI River residents that went on an exploratory mission.

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Mar 11^th, 2022 at 8:35am:

Over the years I have caught smallmouth bass, northern, walleye and pumpkin seed in my local trout stream.  Probably WI River residents that went on an exploratory mission.

I have caught smallies and sunfish in my boyhood brook trout stream when we got a crapload of rain one summer and the stream temps went up from all the surface water discharge from swamps and other runoff that overwhelmed the springs.  Talking with the DNR biologist, he said they most likely came from the mill pond upstream where it's non-trout water (above the springs).  That was probably the case with my particular stream. 

This is the Montana range of smallmouth bass:

Source https://fieldguide.mt.gov/ 
https://i.imgur.com/eAJnk7E.jpg

Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.  That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone.

Phil

OTOH, I was told that, before stream improvements in the Bad Axe system, there were a few brookies in the headwaters, but up to Duck Egg Creek it had been totally SMB.  I've fished that system quite a bit but have never seen one since I started fishing there, about 7 years ago.

PhilA wrote on Mar 12^th, 2022 at 7:08pm:

Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone.

That tends to make me question the "invasive" status.  If smallies are already in a system, just further down...they're not really invasive, are they?

...I'm not saying they're desirable, but just that they're already there...Maybe they were never natural in the system?

Further North wrote on Mar 13^th, 2022 at 10:02pm:

PhilA wrote on Mar 12th, 2022 at 7:08pm: Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone. That tends to make me question the "invasive" status.  If smallies are already in a system, just further down...they're not really invasive, are they? ...I'm not saying they're desirable, but just that they're already there...Maybe they were never natural in the system?

An invasive species is an introduced organism that becomes overpopulated and harms its new environment.[2] Although most introduced species are neutral or beneficial with respect to other species,[3] invasive species adversely affect habitats and bioregions, causing ecological, environmental, and/or economic damage.[4] The term can be used for native species that become harmful within their native distribution due to human alterations of habitat and the environment. An example of a native invasive species is the purple sea urchin (Strongylocentrotus purpuratus) which has decimated kelp forests along the northern California coast due to overharvesting of its natural predator, the California sea otter (Enhydra lutris).[5] Since the 20th century, invasive species have become a serious economic, social, and environmental threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

You did see Phil's map said "nonnative"?

Smallmouth bass are non-native invasives in the Yellowstone watershed, they were never found west of the Mississippi drainage until they were stocked farther west outside of their natural range. 

Also, an indigenous species can become invasive due to human alteration of the environment. 

https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=396

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GerardH wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 7:04am:

Smallmouth bass are non-native invasives in the Yellowstone watershed, they were never found west of the Mississippi drainage until they were stocked farther west outside of their natural range.

That's what I was looking for, thanks.

The rest was informative also.  I'd posit that invasive species have been a problem a lot longer than the 20th century.  I recall historical examples of invasive causing serious problems well before that.

Pheasants are clearly invasive, and non-native.  I wonder if if anyone has ever done a study on their impact; what they displaced...

I'd tend to call wild turkeys invasive - there were few turkeys and tons of grouse and woodcock when I was younger...but then, if I'm being objective and extending my perspective beyond my own lifetime...I have to wonder if it was really grouse and woodcock that were invasive based on the dramatic changes to the habitat from logging, etc. 

We tend to celebrate increases in animals/habitat that we enjoy, and overlook the negatives...but "our" record of "management" of wild things is generally poor...and that's just in my lifetime.  It was worse - much worse - before that, and I'm not terribly impressed with a lot of the efforts I see now.

I tend to remember Crichton's quote from Jurassic Park, "Life will find a way."

I'm meandering...thanks for the info.

Further North wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 11:14am:

Pheasants are clearly invasive, and non-native.  I wonder if if anyone has ever done a study on their impact; what they displaced...

More looks to have been done in the UK than here but they have a few disease issues we don't seem to have. I'm sure they have impacts here but I think they're down on the list of why we don't have prairie chickens or sharptails all over Wisconsin. Hell, we don't have a whole lot of wild pheasants anymore. Take a look at old (say 1950's and '60's) aerial photos - it was a different landscape and I get why my dad talks about how good the pheasant hunting was.


Quote:

I'd tend to call wild turkeys invasive - there were few turkeys and tons of grouse and woodcock when I was younger...but then, if I'm being objective and extending my perspective beyond my own lifetime...I have to wonder if it was really grouse and woodcock that were invasive based on the dramatic changes to the habitat from logging, etc.  We tend to celebrate increases in animals/habitat that we enjoy, and overlook the negatives...but "our" record of "management" of wild things is generally poor...and that's just in my lifetime.  It was worse - much worse - before that, and I'm not terribly impressed with a lot of the efforts I see now.

Turkeys just seem to fit the habitat we have now - much like Brown Trout and pheasants (not so much here anymore...). I am as much for Brook Trout restoration as anyone but it difficult around here without a significant barrier. Brown just seem to kick their butts in this area - even in the colder streams.

I don't know if we've gotten better / smarter about not moving stuff around, on purpose, at least, or we just did so much of it that there aren't "logical" places to move more species. With smallies, some of the best fishing is in places they're not supposed to be - the Boundary Waters, the Potomac, Northeastern US, and a few fisheries out West like the John Day. Crazy world...

An interesting (free!) article on non-native birds: 

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0143070

The numerous federal agencies that monitor and manage invasive species define them rather succinctly:

"An 'invasive species' is a species that is:
1. non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and,
2. whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health."

Phil

Thanks JGF.  A couple of thoughts/observations:


JGF wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 12:30pm:

Take a look at old (say 1950's and '60's) aerial photos - it was a different landscape and I get why my dad talks about how good the pheasant hunting was.

We have a bunch of pheasants up here...at least locally.  More than I ever saw in SE WI growing up.

It's clearly a habitat thing.  I can walk my tiny 10 acres and see as many as I'd see in a day down there, and most of those were planted.  We have a sustaining population, and some ridiculously robust birds...I have several tail feathers over 25" with 30+ bars.


JGF wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 12:30pm:

Turkeys just seem to fit the habitat we have now - much like Brown Trout and pheasants (not so much here anymore...).

That's a similar thought to what prompted my statement above.  I'm a grouse/woodcock/pheasant guy...in that order, probably.  At least overall.  The thought struck me as I was writing my post above that the peak years of grouse and woodcock hunting in WI was probably a result of habitat we created...mostly through logging...which we'd kinda hope emulates forest fires...but doesn't.

What we have more of now is older habitat that may favor turkeys...which isn't my preference, but may be more "natural" were we to look back in time.  I dunno.  I"m going to keep trying to carve grouse and woodcock habitat from turkey habitat...for a lot of reasons.

PhilA wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 1:26pm:

The numerous federal agencies that monitor and manage invasive species define them rather succinctly: "An 'invasive species' is a species that is: 1. non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and, 2. whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health." Phil

Thanks. 

So...given that there were no turkeys in the state in the 70s and 80s...I could call them "invasive", sort of, and to fit the 2nd part, the "and", turkey hunting is definitely a harm to human health:  Turkey hunters sit in blinds and wait, grouse and woodcock hunters walk their fannies off and are in much better shape.

...that last bit's tongue firmly in cheek, if that's not clear.

Further North wrote on Mar 14^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

PhilA wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 1:26pm: The numerous federal agencies that monitor and manage invasive species define them rather succinctly: "An 'invasive species' is a species that is: 1. non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and, 2. whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health." Phil Thanks.  So...given that there were no turkeys in the state in the 70s and 80s...I could call them "invasive", sort of, and to fit the 2nd part, the "and", turkey hunting is definitely a harm to human health:  Turkey hunters sit in blinds and wait, grouse and woodcock hunters walk their fannies off and are in much better shape. ...that last bit's tongue firmly in cheek, if that's not clear.

There were turkeys in the state in the '70s, but their range was very limited since they were doing a grouse for turkeys swap with Missouri and the first successful transplants were around 1976.  By the '80s they expanded enough that there was a hunting season, my cousin used to hunt south of La Crosse in the late 1980s.  However, to your larger point, historically turkey range was along the Mississippi and WI River corridors and birds that we're seeing up north are clearly non-native and invasive -- whether they're displacing other species or disrupting native habitat, that's up for debate.


Quote:

Pheasants are clearly invasive, and non-native.  I wonder if if anyone has ever done a study on their impact; what they displaced...

From my perspective, pheasants are a bird of a different feather (sorry for the pun) -- while they're clearly non-native, they're a niche species that took advantage of the plow that prairie grouse couldn't survive.  From what I've seen in southern IA and Nebraska, they seem to co-exist with native bobwhite since they use different habitat for the most part.  So I don't think pheasants have displaced any native species that I'm aware of and have simply taken advantage of an unoccupied niche created by the expansion of agriculture.  Similar to brown trout thriving in streams too degraded for native brook trout (which can't be said in all cases where habitat is ideal for both fontinalis and trutta, however). 


Edit:  Wisconsin's first turkey season was 1983 and first fall hunt was 1989.

Below is a link to an interesting article about turkey population fluctuations over the years and efforts at establishing new "invasive" populations.  Here in northern Minnesota turkeys are rapidly expanding their range in a region that they have never colonized before.  Although they can handle cold weather well, snow depth was always the limiting factor. That prevents them from scratching for food.  However, in speaking with a wildlife biologist with the DNR I was told that it was the "hot lunch program" that was allowing them to expand.  By that he meant small cattle operations where turkeys could get nourishment from cow pies, including bits of undigested grain.  I also suspect people feeding deer has had a big impact.  In any event, they are doing remarkably well and moving north after having been reintroduced in central and western Minnesota.  Ten years ago there were no turkeys anywhere near here and now they are commonplace (I saw two yesterday just down the road).  As soon as they become a nuisance to local farmers I'll volunteer to shoot them.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/oct/20/turkeys-in-washington-invasive-species-conservatio/

I remember the first wild turkey we found in WI.

We were hunting over a friend's GWP Gypsy.  Gypsy wasn't afraid of anything.  Ever...

She locked up on a bush, about shoulder high...and slowly turned her head to look at Steve with a pure WTF? expression.  We took a couple of steps in and this huge, black thing blew out of the bush...I took a step back...because I didn't know what we'd flushed for a second...

...as far as shooting them, I was in favor for the rule that allowed hunting them with dogs...as I had a GSP at the time that possessed the ability to track and pin down a couple a year...I've not seen a lot of dogs who can do this.  I figured if I got a side on shot at less than about 10 yards, I'd take the shot as it's no harder than hitting a 60MM clay target, and a lot slower.

...I also think it should be legal to shoot them with a rimfire...a 17HMR would be perfect for this.

Bob W wrote on Mar 13^th, 2022 at 9:47am:

OTOH, I was told that, before stream improvements in the Bad Axe system, there were a few brookies in the headwaters, but up to Duck Egg Creek it had been totally SMB.  I've fished that system quite a bit but have never seen one since I started fishing there, about 7 years ago.

I've caught SMB, Rock Bass and Perch in that system over the years.

Turkey are native to WI...but originally only in the very southern parts of the state.

Now there are too many of them.  Thanks to Wisconsin's "management" plan they have spread into the U.P. as well.

IMO, what they need to do is open the season March 1 thru May 31 and get rid of the 7 day periods that you have to apply for and eliminate the turkey tag and classify turkey under the small game license.  But they won't...because Turkey is a money maker for the state...$15 per license plus $5.25 per stamp.

Having to choose a period to hunt and then hope that the weather isn't crap during the chosen period is why I quit turkey hunting.

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Mar 15^th, 2022 at 8:16am:

Bob W wrote on Mar 13th, 2022 at 9:47am: OTOH, I was told that, before stream improvements in the Bad Axe system, there were a few brookies in the headwaters, but up to Duck Egg Creek it had been totally SMB.  I've fished that system quite a bit but have never seen one since I started fishing there, about 7 years ago. I've caught SMB, Rock Bass and Perch in that system over the years.

And carp, lots and lots of carp.