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Smallmouth/Invasive (Read 4440 times)
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Smallmouth/Invasive
Mar 10th, 2022 at 11:52am
 
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GerardH
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 12:48pm
 
Saw that, wondering if that was a wayward fish from the Missouri or a newly established resident population.  Not a biologist, but I would think most if not all streams in the Yellowstone ecosystem would be inhospitable to bass...it's really unusual to see smallies even in WI trout streams unless there's a warming issue and this is their native range.

But it is a concern....
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 1:14pm
 
GerardH wrote on Mar 10th, 2022 at 12:48pm:
Saw that, wondering if that was a wayward fish from the Missouri or a newly established resident population.  Not a biologist, but I would think most if not all streams in the Yellowstone ecosystem would be inhospitable to bass...it's really unusual to see smallies even in WI trout streams unless there's a warming issue and this is their native range.

But it is a concern....


I had a similar thought the other day. In West (By God) Virginia, it was fairly common to see smallies in trout streams, particularly in places that were near a lake or larger river. The part of WV I was in was in their native range (the Potomac is not).

Smallies can be pretty voracious - it could be quite an issue, particularly as has happened in the last few years, the streams warm in the summer (particularly if they have lakes or other places to retreat to).
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2022 at 1:38pm
 
JGF wrote on Mar 10th, 2022 at 1:14pm:
I had a similar thought the other day. In West (By God) Virginia, it was fairly common to see smallies in trout streams, particularly in places that were near a lake or larger river. The part of WV I was in was in their native range (the Potomac is not).



I've never fished out East and I'm basing this only on my reading, so please correct me if I'm wrong -- but it seems many of the trout rivers out there with smallies are marginal for trout and rely on stocking to provide a cold water fishery.  The streams that have good self-sustaining trout populations tend to be smaller mountain streams for the most part.  Again, I could be wrong on that assumption.




JGF wrote on Mar 10th, 2022 at 1:14pm:
Smallies can be pretty voracious - it could be quite an issue, particularly as has happened in the last few years, the streams warm in the summer (particularly if they have lakes or other places to retreat to). 


Yes, I know in spring ponds in NE WI and the UP, illegal stockings of bass wiped out native brook trout that were likely in those ponds since the retreat of the last glacier.
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« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2022 at 3:00pm by GerardH »  

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 8:35am
 
Over the years I have caught smallmouth bass, northern, walleye and pumpkin seed in my local trout stream.  Probably WI River residents that went on an exploratory mission.
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #5 - Mar 11th, 2022 at 9:00am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Mar 11th, 2022 at 8:35am:
Over the years I have caught smallmouth bass, northern, walleye and pumpkin seed in my local trout stream.  Probably WI River residents that went on an exploratory mission.


I have caught smallies and sunfish in my boyhood brook trout stream when we got a crapload of rain one summer and the stream temps went up from all the surface water discharge from swamps and other runoff that overwhelmed the springs.  Talking with the DNR biologist, he said they most likely came from the mill pond upstream where it's non-trout water (above the springs).  That was probably the case with my particular stream. 
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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2022 at 9:02am by GerardH »  

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #6 - Mar 12th, 2022 at 7:08pm
 
This is the Montana range of smallmouth bass:

Source https://fieldguide.mt.gov/ 
...

Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.  That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone.

Phil

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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #7 - Mar 13th, 2022 at 9:47am
 
OTOH, I was told that, before stream improvements in the Bad Axe system, there were a few brookies in the headwaters, but up to Duck Egg Creek it had been totally SMB.  I've fished that system quite a bit but have never seen one since I started fishing there, about 7 years ago.
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #8 - Mar 13th, 2022 at 10:02pm
 
PhilA wrote on Mar 12th, 2022 at 7:08pm:
Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone.


That tends to make me question the "invasive" status.  If smallies are already in a system, just further down...they're not really invasive, are they?

...I'm not saying they're desirable, but just that they're already there...Maybe they were never natural in the system?
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 7:04am
 
Further North wrote on Mar 13th, 2022 at 10:02pm:
PhilA wrote on Mar 12th, 2022 at 7:08pm:
Looks like they are already in the Stillwater, Boulder, lower Yellowstone, and tributaries of the lower Yellowstone.That puts them a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the upper Yellowstone.


That tends to make me question the "invasive" status.  If smallies are already in a system, just further down...they're not really invasive, are they?

...I'm not saying they're desirable, but just that they're already there...Maybe they were never natural in the system?


An invasive species is an introduced organism that becomes overpopulated and harms its new environment.[2] Although most introduced species are neutral or beneficial with respect to other species,[3] invasive species adversely affect habitats and bioregions, causing ecological, environmental, and/or economic damage.[4] The term can be used for native species that become harmful within their native distribution due to human alterations of habitat and the environment. An example of a native invasive species is the purple sea urchin (Strongylocentrotus purpuratus) which has decimated kelp forests along the northern California coast due to overharvesting of its natural predator, the California sea otter (Enhydra lutris).[5] Since the 20th century, invasive species have become a serious economic, social, and environmental threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

You did see Phil's map said "nonnative"?

Smallmouth bass are non-native invasives in the Yellowstone watershed, they were never found west of the Mississippi drainage until they were stocked farther west outside of their natural range. 

Also, an indigenous species can become invasive due to human alteration of the environment. 

https://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=396

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« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2022 at 7:39am by GerardH »  

smallmouth_range.jpg (140 KB | 27 )
smallmouth_range.jpg

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 11:14am
 
GerardH wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 7:04am:
Smallmouth bass are non-native invasives in the Yellowstone watershed, they were never found west of the Mississippi drainage until they were stocked farther west outside of their natural range. 


That's what I was looking for, thanks.

The rest was informative also.  I'd posit that invasive species have been a problem a lot longer than the 20th century.  I recall historical examples of invasive causing serious problems well before that.

Pheasants are clearly invasive, and non-native.  I wonder if if anyone has ever done a study on their impact; what they displaced...

I'd tend to call wild turkeys invasive - there were few turkeys and tons of grouse and woodcock when I was younger...but then, if I'm being objective and extending my perspective beyond my own lifetime...I have to wonder if it was really grouse and woodcock that were invasive based on the dramatic changes to the habitat from logging, etc. 

We tend to celebrate increases in animals/habitat that we enjoy, and overlook the negatives...but "our" record of "management" of wild things is generally poor...and that's just in my lifetime.  It was worse - much worse - before that, and I'm not terribly impressed with a lot of the efforts I see now.

I tend to remember Crichton's quote from Jurassic Park, "Life will find a way."

I'm meandering...thanks for the info.

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« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2022 at 11:25am by Further North »  

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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #11 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 12:30pm
 
Further North wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 11:14am:
Pheasants are clearly invasive, and non-native.  I wonder if if anyone has ever done a study on their impact; what they displaced...


More looks to have been done in the UK than here but they have a few disease issues we don't seem to have. I'm sure they have impacts here but I think they're down on the list of why we don't have prairie chickens or sharptails all over Wisconsin. Hell, we don't have a whole lot of wild pheasants anymore. Take a look at old (say 1950's and '60's) aerial photos - it was a different landscape and I get why my dad talks about how good the pheasant hunting was.

Quote:
I'd tend to call wild turkeys invasive - there were few turkeys and tons of grouse and woodcock when I was younger...but then, if I'm being objective and extending my perspective beyond my own lifetime...I have to wonder if it was really grouse and woodcock that were invasive based on the dramatic changes to the habitat from logging, etc. 

We tend to celebrate increases in animals/habitat that we enjoy, and overlook the negatives...but "our" record of "management" of wild things is generally poor...and that's just in my lifetime.  It was worse - much worse - before that, and I'm not terribly impressed with a lot of the efforts I see now.


Turkeys just seem to fit the habitat we have now - much like Brown Trout and pheasants (not so much here anymore...). I am as much for Brook Trout restoration as anyone but it difficult around here without a significant barrier. Brown just seem to kick their butts in this area - even in the colder streams.

I don't know if we've gotten better / smarter about not moving stuff around, on purpose, at least, or we just did so much of it that there aren't "logical" places to move more species. With smallies, some of the best fishing is in places they're not supposed to be - the Boundary Waters, the Potomac, Northeastern US, and a few fisheries out West like the John Day. Crazy world...

An interesting (free!) article on non-native birds: 

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0143070
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #12 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 1:26pm
 
The numerous federal agencies that monitor and manage invasive species define them rather succinctly:

"An 'invasive species' is a species that is:
1. non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and,
2. whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health."

Phil
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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #13 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 4:00pm
 
Thanks JGF.  A couple of thoughts/observations:

JGF wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 12:30pm:
Take a look at old (say 1950's and '60's) aerial photos - it was a different landscape and I get why my dad talks about how good the pheasant hunting was. 


We have a bunch of pheasants up here...at least locally.  More than I ever saw in SE WI growing up.

It's clearly a habitat thing.  I can walk my tiny 10 acres and see as many as I'd see in a day down there, and most of those were planted.  We have a sustaining population, and some ridiculously robust birds...I have several tail feathers over 25" with 30+ bars.

JGF wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 12:30pm:
Turkeys just seem to fit the habitat we have now - much like Brown Trout and pheasants (not so much here anymore...).


That's a similar thought to what prompted my statement above.  I'm a grouse/woodcock/pheasant guy...in that order, probably.  At least overall.  The thought struck me as I was writing my post above that the peak years of grouse and woodcock hunting in WI was probably a result of habitat we created...mostly through logging...which we'd kinda hope emulates forest fires...but doesn't.

What we have more of now is older habitat that may favor turkeys...which isn't my preference, but may be more "natural" were we to look back in time.  I dunno.  I"m going to keep trying to carve grouse and woodcock habitat from turkey habitat...for a lot of reasons.


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Re: Smallmouth/Invasive
Reply #14 - Mar 14th, 2022 at 4:03pm
 
PhilA wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 1:26pm:
The numerous federal agencies that monitor and manage invasive species define them rather succinctly:

"An 'invasive species' is a species that is:
1. non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and,
2. whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health."

Phil


Thanks. 

So...given that there were no turkeys in the state in the 70s and 80s...I could call them "invasive", sort of, and to fit the 2nd part, the "and", turkey hunting is definitely a harm to human health:  Turkey hunters sit in blinds and wait, grouse and woodcock hunters walk their fannies off and are in much better shape.

...that last bit's tongue firmly in cheek, if that's not clear.
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..¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸ ><((((°<

Bass inhale. Trout Sip.  The musky bites.
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