Wisconsin Fly Fishing Forums - Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f

Further North Dragon Fly Offline Posts: 9161 NW WI Gender:	Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f Aug 27^th, 2021 at 12:41am https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/despite-promises-biden-admin-pushing-pro-fossi... I'm surprised this hasn't shown up here before this. A pretty reasonable, unbiased source, IMO. I saw it when it came out a,d waited for others to post it...but that didn't happen...posted for education, and objective comment.
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Whiskers Yellowbanks

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #1 - Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am

First time I've seen this. This is a pragmatic response to the reality that EV and hydrogen vehicles are a decade or so away from achieving a majority of vehicle sales over IC cars and trucks. Until then, you'll need oil and if you, as a president, are seen as a force driving up the cost of gas due to your policies then you won't be president for long. Look at how people claimed that cancelling the XL pipeline as driving up oil prices, even though a single drop of "oil", it's really tar, wouldn't have flowed through the line for two more years.

What I'd like to see and think there is a reasonable chance we will see is tighter controls of methane leaks from wells and better, less polluting methods of fracking. I believe that numerous federally funded research projects on everything from solar power, geothermal, battery improvements etc are ongoing and in fact are seeing increased support. Just the other day the Livermore Labs announced a huge step towards fusion reactors, which if perfected would make every other form of energy production obsolete. But until that or renewables are at a point where oil is a secondary, fallback energy option you will see efforts to keep its cost down.

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Further North

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #2 - Aug 28^th, 2021 at 8:18pm

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

First time I've seen this. This is a pragmatic response to the reality that EV and hydrogen vehicles are a decade or so away from achieving a majority of vehicle sales over IC cars and trucks. Until then, you'll need oil and if you, as a president, are seen as a force driving up the cost of gas due to your policies then you won't be president for long. Look at how people claimed that cancelling the XL pipeline as driving up oil prices, even though a single drop of "oil", it's really tar, wouldn't have flowed through the line for two more years.

I would have figured you for a Hatch subscriber...but yes, good evaluation.

I'm also driven nuts by the BS attempts to assign blame for current fuel prices to the cancellation of the pipeline...it's a lazy, sloppy argument from people who don't understand how the market works, and that the root cause is speculation by people/companies acting in their own short term best interest...to the detriment of everyone else.

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

What I'd like to see and think there is a reasonable chance we will see is tighter controls of methane leaks from wells and better, less polluting methods of fracking. I believe that numerous federally funded research projects on everything from solar power, geothermal, battery improvements etc are ongoing and in fact are seeing increased support. Just the other day the Livermore Labs announced a huge step towards fusion reactors, which if perfected would make every other form of energy production obsolete. But until that or renewables are at a point where oil is a secondary, fallback energy option you will see efforts to keep its cost down.

-ish.

As a certified cynic, I remain skeptical of a lot of that...we tried hard to make an EV fit our lives when we bought a new vehicle for my wife this spring...and it just doesn't pencil yet...and if we can't make it fit...there's a whole bunch of Americans who aren't even close.

We went geothermal almost a decade ago, and while graphene tech is amazing, it's not here yet...I'm anxious to see it, or any of the other tech you mention, become useful.

WRT to efforts to keep the cost of oil down...Oil suppliers are key contributors to politics...on every "side", in every way...I remain skeptical that any serious effort will be undertaken to dial things back. Americans are hurting with the current higher prices and they're going to react, short term, for their pocket books...

Yeah, that's a ramble...

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« Last Edit: Aug 29^th, 2021 at 1:48pm by Further North »

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GerardH

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #3 - Aug 29^th, 2021 at 11:40am

Also not a Hatch subscriber. Regarding Biden, I never saw his administration as an environmental panacea, at best I was hoping he'd try to undo what was done by 45 and get things back to 2016...like bringing science back into in his cabinet positions and agencies. But it sounds like that's easier said than done...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/climate/biden-scientists-shortage-climate.htm...

Edit: In case you're not a subscriber https://archive.is/J2cIL

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« Last Edit: Aug 29^th, 2021 at 12:55pm by GerardH »

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Further North

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #4 - Aug 29^th, 2021 at 1:50pm

GerardH wrote on Aug 29^th, 2021 at 11:40am:

Also not a Hatch subscriber. Regarding Biden, I never saw his administration as an environmental panacea, at best I was hoping he'd try to undo what was done by 45 and get things back to 2016...like bringing science back into in his cabinet positions and agencies. But it sounds like that's easier said than done...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/climate/biden-scientists-shortage-climate.htm...

Edit: In case you're not a subscriber https://archive.is/J2cIL

That's a reasonable expectation on your part, and a an interesting perspective from the NYT. I can't blame anyone for trying to get away from 45...no way I'd work for him either.

It's probably fair to toss COVID into the mix as a disruption that's still getting in the way.

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #5 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:27am

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

Until then, you'll need oil and if you, as a president, are seen as a force driving up the cost of gas due to your policies then you won't be president for long.

That’s how establishment politicians work. They say whatever to get in, then do whatever the people who are paying want them to do.

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

This is a pragmatic response to the reality that EV and hydrogen vehicles are a decade or so away from achieving a majority of vehicle sales over IC cars and trucks.

EVs have their own environmental issues. As bad or worse than fossil fuels in my opinion. Mining for the batteries and then recycling them being the biggest environmental issues. Kind of a rob Peter to pay Paul issue I think

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/electric-vehicles-take-of...

https://therevelator.org/ev-batteries-seabed-mining/

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« Last Edit: Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:05am by Jizzy Pearl »

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #6 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am

Further North wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 8:18pm:

As a certified cynic, I remain skeptical of a lot of that...we tried hard to make an EV fit our lives when we bought a new vehicle for my wife this spring...and it just doesn't pencil yet...and if we can't make it fit...there's a whole bunch of Americans who aren't even close.

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

Just returned from a fishing trip out west with a truck load of camping and fishing gear. Put on ~2700 miles with about 350 miles between fill ups. No way an EV would be able to accomplish that. Even if there were enough charging stations along the way or an EV capable of longer range and hauling all my gear...I'm not patient enough to sit and wait for the EV to charge before I can continue on.

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JGF

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #7 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

EV's make a lot more sense for most people, particularly if they have a second gas vehicle for longer trips. Most people buy cars for the exceptional trip - your trip out West - and not the daily commute. You could always rent a vehicle for the exceptional trip...using the gas you've saved on during the year to "justify" it.

I agree, there are environmental concerns with EVs.

And as a whole, people are kind of dumb...

Quote:

Ford’s Cannis cites an interesting statistic: “Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.” That shows how little many Americans know about EVs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-el...

As for the original article, anyone that thought Biden was going to come in and instantly fix issues with fossil fuels and climate change in the first year and a half of his administration probably thought Trump was going to "drain the swamp" in his 4 years too...

Things change slowly. Hell, I'm fairly happy that our government recognize that climate change is real thing again. Of course in 3 years or so, that may not be the case again. The pendulum swings is certainly one of the issues our country has in dealing with these issues.

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Jizzy Pearl

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #8 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:47am

JGF wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

EV's make a lot more sense for most people, particularly if they have a second gas vehicle for longer trips. Most people buy cars for the exceptional trip - your trip out West - and not the daily commute. You could always rent a vehicle for the exceptional trip...using the gas you've saved on during the year to "justify" it.

I agree, there are environmental concerns with EVs.

EV still wouldn't be practical for me even as a commuting vehicle...2 miles one way to work for me. On top of the car payment I already have (for the next 2 years), I would incur an additional car payment and insurance costs just to have an EV. And then my electrical bill at home would go up just to keep it charged. At that rate the payback period would be so many years down the road that I just couldn't justify it as an upfront expense. Especially when the current vehicle is paid off in 2 years.

Majority of my recreational trips on any given weekend are mini versions of my out west trip still making EV impractical for me. This weekend I'm headed to the U.P. with bikes and fishing gear. Need the room for all my crap that an EV can't provide.

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« Last Edit: Aug 30^th, 2021 at 10:42am by Jizzy Pearl »

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Further North

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #9 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 6:28pm

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:27am:

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

Until then, you'll need oil and if you, as a president, are seen as a force driving up the cost of gas due to your policies then you won't be president for long.

That’s how establishment politicians work. They say whatever to get in, then do whatever the people who are paying want them to do.

+10,000

Good luck getting any agreement from the politically committed.

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:27am:

Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Aug 28^th, 2021 at 11:35am:

[quote author=57555F425755535C5546555C515E54300 link=1630042893/1#1 date=1630168539]This is a pragmatic response to the reality that EV and hydrogen vehicles are a decade or so away from achieving a majority of vehicle sales over IC cars and trucks.

EVs have their own environmental issues. As bad or worse than fossil fuels in my opinion. Mining for the batteries and then recycling them being the biggest environmental issues. Kind of a rob Peter to pay Paul issue I think

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/electric-vehicles-take-of...

https://therevelator.org/ev-batteries-seabed-mining/

They do. It's all about digging past the prejudices and marketing hype and seeing what suits each of us.

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Further North

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #10 - Aug 30^th, 2021 at 6:47pm

JGF wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

EV's make a lot more sense for most people, particularly if they have a second gas vehicle for longer trips. Most people buy cars for the exceptional trip - your trip out West - and not the daily commute. You could always rent a vehicle for the exceptional trip...using the gas you've saved on during the year to "justify" it.

I agree, there are environmental concerns with EVs.

We are fortunate to be a two car family (OK, four, but two are for the kid, and I'm not going to waste time trying to explain that...anyone who is interested can ask, but trust me, it's not worth your time).

My vehicle (currently a Jeep Grand Cherokee) was selected for its ability to do what I need it to do for life, and for fun. I need to be able to pull two boats (an 18 1/2 foot fishing boat and a drift boat, get down rutted two tracks when chasing birds, and get through crappy winter weather. It also needs to deliver reasonable levels of clean air, and have good MPG. On trips on state highways, at 60-ish speeds, it'll deliver 25 - 27 MPG. Interestingly, it gets about that with the drift boat hooked up. Interstates, with no trailer, will deliver about the same. The 8 speed transmission, in play since 2015, makes a huge difference. I figure I'll put about 12,000, possibly as much as 15,000 miles on it a year...bu the long term average will tilt towards the lower number.

My wife's car, a Ford Edge, will touch 28 MPG on a longer highway run, but is a bit below the Jeep in day to day runs. She'll put - maybe - 7,500 miles a year on it.

Had the Mustang Mach-E made economic sense for us (including all the "hidden" costs, of which there are many), there'd be one in the garage right now. I'm hoping that by next time around (it'll be 10 years, I hope) an EV will slot in, bith cost and environmental impact-wise.

JGF wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

And as a whole, people are kind of dumb...

[quote]Ford’s Cannis cites an interesting statistic: “Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.” That shows how little many Americans know about EVs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-el...

As for the original article, anyone that thought Biden was going to come in and instantly fix issues with fossil fuels and climate change in the first year and a half of his administration probably thought Trump was going to "drain the swamp" in his 4 years too...

Things change slowly. Hell, I'm fairly happy that our government recognize that climate change is real thing again. Of course in 3 years or so, that may not be the case again. The pendulum swings is certainly one of the issues our country has in dealing with these issues.

Big ships turn slowly, and politics is a process. Neither promises quick changes for anyone rational.

...and "Wow" on the Forbes article... Shocked

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Chironomid

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #11 - Aug 31^st, 2021 at 5:10pm

JGF wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

EV's make a lot more sense for most people, particularly if they have a second gas vehicle for longer trips. Most people buy cars for the exceptional trip - your trip out West - and not the daily commute. You could always rent a vehicle for the exceptional trip...using the gas you've saved on during the year to "justify" it.

I agree, there are environmental concerns with EVs.

And as a whole, people are kind of dumb...

Quote:

Ford’s Cannis cites an interesting statistic: “Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.” That shows how little many Americans know about EVs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-el...

As for the original article, anyone that thought Biden was going to come in and instantly fix issues with fossil fuels and climate change in the first year and a half of his administration probably thought Trump was going to "drain the swamp" in his 4 years too...

Things change slowly. Hell, I'm fairly happy that our government recognize that climate change is real thing again. Of course in 3 years or so, that may not be the case again. The pendulum swings is certainly one of the issues our country has in dealing with these issues.

HUH????? Biden's been president for EIGHT MONTHS, not a year-and-a-half! Roll Eyes

Chironomid

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« Last Edit: Sep 3^rd, 2021 at 3:33pm by Chironomid »

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JGF

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Re: Despite promises, Biden admin pushing pro-fossil f
Reply #12 - Aug 31^st, 2021 at 7:59pm

Chironomid wrote on Aug 31^st, 2021 at 5:10pm:

JGF wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 30^th, 2021 at 8:32am:

As a consumer I wouldn't mind an EV...just so I could save $$$ on gas and oil change costs. However...Range and lack of charging stations makes it impractical for me.

EV's make a lot more sense for most people, particularly if they have a second gas vehicle for longer trips. Most people buy cars for the exceptional trip - your trip out West - and not the daily commute. You could always rent a vehicle for the exceptional trip...using the gas you've saved on during the year to "justify" it.

I agree, there are environmental concerns with EVs.

And as a whole, people are kind of dumb...

Quote:

Ford’s Cannis cites an interesting statistic: “Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.” That shows how little many Americans know about EVs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/09/22/why-americans-dont-buy-el...

As for the original article, anyone that thought Biden was going to come in and instantly fix issues with fossil fuels and climate change in the first year and a half of his administration probably thought Trump was going to "drain the swamp" in his 4 years too...

Things change slowly. Hell, I'm fairly happy that our government recognize that climate change is real thing again. Of course in 3 years or so, that may not be the case again. The pendulum swings is certainly one of the issues our country has in dealing with these issues.

HUH????? Biden's been president for EIGHT MONTHS, not a year-and-a-half! Roll Eyes

Chironomid

With COVID going on, the last year and half has felt like 4 years and the last 8 months, like a year a a half.

Only excuse I have...

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