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Western Drought (Read 8905 times)
Whiskers Yellowbanks
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Western Drought
Jul 25th, 2021 at 7:48pm
 
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« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2021 at 8:34am by Whiskers Yellowbanks »  

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darklake
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #1 - Jul 25th, 2021 at 11:18pm
 
Good grief.  What a bizarrely written article!
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Whiskers Yellowbanks
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #2 - Jul 26th, 2021 at 8:36am
 
darklake wrote on Jul 25th, 2021 at 11:18pm:
Good grief.  What a bizarrely written article!


I think it was a translation of a translation. I replaced it with the original article Hopefully it isn't locked behind a paywall.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #3 - Jul 26th, 2021 at 9:21am
 
It looked like part of the West got some rain this week - mostly further south but it might help Colorado, AZ, and NM.

I picked up 3 different books to try to understand western water issues. One thing I found pretty interesting is that the time frame they used to determine how much water was in the Colorado River was - based on tree ring data - the wettest period in the last 4-500 years. So they're allocating too much water - particularly in years like this one.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2021 at 4:38pm
 
JGF wrote on Jul 26th, 2021 at 9:21am:
It looked like part of the West got some rain this week - mostly further south but it might help Colorado, AZ, and NM.

I picked up 3 different books to try to understand western water issues. One thing I found pretty interesting is that the time frame they used to determine how much water was in the Colorado River was - based on tree ring data - the wettest period in the last 4-500 years. So they're allocating too much water - particularly in years like this one. 


I've read the same thing...the Colorado River flows were at historic highs at the time they determined allocation.  True water conservation doesn't seem to be a thing out there.

Of course, every couple years there seems to be a hard pitch to extract water from from the upper Great Lakes states....as if we never experience drought.

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Further North
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #5 - Jul 26th, 2021 at 9:49pm
 
Whiskers Yellowbanks wrote on Jul 26th, 2021 at 8:36am:
darklake wrote on Jul 25th, 2021 at 11:18pm:
Good grief.  What a bizarrely written article!


I think it was a translation of a translation. I replaced it with the original article Hopefully it isn't locked behind a paywall.


It is paywalled.  This'll work: http://archive.today/5d1hO
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tannin
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #6 - Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am
 
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #7 - Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:58am
 
When I was out West in June staying on the Ranch along the Henry's Fork, one early morning I walked their special trail that is intermixed with large signs talking about the history and habitat of the ranch. One sign was discussing the importance of sagebrush and how it helps the environment by collecting the snow during the Winter months. The snow then slowly melts in the Spring giving back valuable moisture to the ground and keeping the area cooler longer.

When the ranchers removed all the sagebrush the Winter snows no longer collect in the fields. Causing the farmland to heat up sooner and dry out faster in the Spring.

Later, while I was cutting through some dense sagebrush to get to a special spot on the river I no longer cussed at the sagebrush.

John
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #8 - Aug 3rd, 2021 at 2:08pm
 
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


Irrigation doesn't help either.

Thankfully where I am headed to in Colorado in 2-1/2 weeks has been receiving weekly rains.   Everything looks great.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #9 - Aug 3rd, 2021 at 2:56pm
 
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm in complete agreement...but you know that would fire up another sagebrush rebellion and Bundy-clones would be coming out of the woodwork armed to the teeth.
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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tannin
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 10:20am
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 2:56pm:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm in complete agreement...but you know that would fire up another sagebrush rebellion and Bundy-clones would be coming out of the woodwork armed to the teeth.


Yup.  They would go crazy(er)
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 10:20am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 2:08pm:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


Irrigation doesn't help either.

Thankfully where I am headed to in Colorado in 2-1/2 weeks has been receiving weekly rains.   Everything looks great.


It sure doesn't, and much of the irrigation is to raise hay for cattle.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #12 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 11:07am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm trying to understand how a tax - that would get passed along to consumers - would help?

I like the idea of raising cattle in the east (sort of, because I'm concerned it'd lead to more CAFOs) and can back cutting off grazing on BLM land...but the idea of a tax isn't effective.

Direct action works better than indirect, IMO.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #13 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 11:09am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 10:20am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 2:08pm:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


Irrigation doesn't help either.

Thankfully where I am headed to in Colorado in 2-1/2 weeks has been receiving weekly rains.   Everything looks great.


It sure doesn't, and much of the irrigation is to raise hay for cattle.


Around here it's to grow corn and other crops we don't need.

We have a particularly egregious offender just down the road from here.  I've seen their systems running in the rain...
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #14 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 9:23pm
 
Further North wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 11:07am:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm trying to understand how a tax - that would get passed along to consumers - would help?

I like the idea of raising cattle in the east (sort of, because I'm concerned it'd lead to more CAFOs) and can back cutting off grazing on BLM land...but the idea of a tax isn't effective.

Direct action works better than indirect, IMO.


Although taxes are primarily for raising funds, they are also commonly used as disincentives.  If the cattlemen in the west had a tax that made it harder for them to compete with the cattlemen in the east, there would be a disincentive to raise cattle, and thus pump out rivers to raise hay in the western states.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #15 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 10:38pm
 
tannin wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Further North wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 11:07am:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm trying to understand how a tax - that would get passed along to consumers - would help?

I like the idea of raising cattle in the east (sort of, because I'm concerned it'd lead to more CAFOs) and can back cutting off grazing on BLM land...but the idea of a tax isn't effective.

Direct action works better than indirect, IMO.


Although taxes are primarily for raising funds, they are also commonly used as disincentives.  If the cattlemen in the west had a tax that made it harder for them to compete with the cattlemen in the east, there would be a disincentive to raise cattle, and thus pump out rivers to raise hay in the western states.


I hate to pick nits (OK, not really, I kinda live for it 'cuz it tends to reveal agendas), tell us, who, exactly, does taxation raise funds for?  I mean...I know the answer, but let's get it out there, make it public...

...and your assessment that there's some kind of actual difference between eastern and western "cattlemen" begs the same question...who benefits?  Feel free to provide detail...

Please note that I'm challenging your assessment, not you, as an individual, because I truly believe that your heart is in in the right place.

Here's a thought, skip the passive aggressive taxation and just write the laws for the results that'd best for everyone.

Bottom line: Let's advocate for what's truly best for everyone, and the environment, and screw the politics.

Anyone who puts politics first should find a deep, dark hole, crawl into it, and die.

Bottom line: Everyone here has the same goals.

What we do with that, and how we choose to present it makes all the difference in the world.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 11:29am by Further North »  

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 8:36am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


FYI.  Grazing isn't free on BLM land...

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-and-forest-service-announce-2020-grazing-f...

And there is already a tax on cattle if it is livestock that is held primarily for sale to customers.

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:04pm
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 5th, 2021 at 8:36am:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


FYI.  Grazing isn't free on BLM land...

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-and-forest-service-announce-2020-grazing-f...




At $16.20 per head annually, that's virtually free ($1.35/head/month -- 1966 it was $1.26/head/month).  Try to amortize grazing cost on private land...a square bale of hay was costing about $5/bale a couple years ago (hate to think what it is right now with this drought).  Just like mineral and drilling rights on public lands -- it's a giveaway.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:10pm by GerardH »  

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Jizzy Pearl
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #18 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:11pm
 
Free?

BLM collects about $15 million per year in grazing fees.

The point here being that grazing on BLM isn't free.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #19 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:15pm
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:11pm:
Free?

BLM collects about $15 million per year in grazing fees.

The point here being that grazing on BLM isn't free.


My point is that it may as well be free. How many head of cattle are grazing on federal land (the answer is 1.9 million)?  $15 mil is a joke.  Actually, it's bank robbery.

https://therevelator.org/cattle-public-lands/
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:17pm by GerardH »  

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #20 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:20pm
 
Yup.  Still not free.  Could be worse.  Could be $0 instead of ~$15 million.

I do agree that they could be more since I'm sure the farmers are also subsidized by the government.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #21 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am
 
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation is also used toward croplands.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #22 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #23 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:33am
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


I couldn't agree more.

I prefer my lawn to be brown so I don't have to mow as often.  Got that mower at the lowest setting in scalp mode.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #24 - Aug 8th, 2021 at 9:41pm
 
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #25 - Aug 9th, 2021 at 8:23am
 
Grin  Cheesy
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #26 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #27 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm:
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."


Whatchya gonna do though?

I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #28 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am:
tannin wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm:
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."


Whatchya gonna do though?

I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.


Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )
WWW http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=14051797  
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #29 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:30am
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am:
Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.


I don't disagree.  But you and I both know that will never happen.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #30 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:49am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:30am:
GerardH wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am:
Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.


I don't disagree.  But you and I both know that will never happen.


I disagree.  Eventually it has to happen...especially since they keep proposing to pipe, ditch, truck water from the Great Lakes states.  Otherwise, like I said earlier, they're toast.  If they want to turn a tap on and expect water to come out, they will have to completely change their laws regarding water from private to public as starters...water's not a commodity.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #31 - Aug 16th, 2021 at 9:29pm
 
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #32 - Aug 18th, 2021 at 2:42pm
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am:
tannin wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm:
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."


Whatchya gonna do though?

I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.


Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.


And preserve land as parks and green spaces, zone for large minimum lot sizes, make living in the inner parts of cities better by making things pedestrian friendly, creating affordable housing, and providing good mass transit.
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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2021 at 9:21pm by tannin »  
 
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #33 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 8:52am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am:
I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.


To each their own.  I moved out there in 1977 to take a job, but lasted six weeks before moving back.  I remember driving up into the mountains to try to fish the Blue River and having trouble finding a pull off that wasn't full of cars -- fishermen, hikers, kayakers, etc.  And that was 45 years ago.  Two of my sisters and one of my sons live in the Denver area, and every time I visit I last a few days before the sprawl and the traffic gets to me.  (And Denver has one of the worst air qualities in the US, just behind Detroit).  The front range is a great place to live if you like strip malls, but if you want solitude in the outdoors, you'll find that hard to come by.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #34 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:02am
 
darklake wrote on Aug 19th, 2021 at 8:52am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am:
I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.


To each their own.  I moved out there in 1977 to take a job, but lasted six weeks before moving back.  I remember driving up into the mountains to try to fish the Blue River and having trouble finding a pull off that wasn't full of cars -- fishermen, hikers, kayakers, etc.  And that was 45 years ago.  Two of my sisters and one of my sons live in the Denver area, and every time I visit I last a few days before the sprawl and the traffic gets to me.  (And Denver has one of the worst air qualities in the US, just behind Detroit).  The front range is a great place to live if you like strip malls, but if you want solitude in the outdoors, you'll find that hard to come by.


That was the impression I got when I was there a couple years ago.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #35 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:12am
 
darklake wrote on Aug 19th, 2021 at 8:52am:
The front range is a great place to live if you like strip malls, but if you want solitude in the outdoors, you'll find that hard to come by.


All depends on how far you want to venture away from the Big City.  I wouldn't live in the city myself.  Would find a nearby small town.

Spent a week in Evergreen, CO last year and have been out there fishing for a week every summer since 2017 about 2-1/2 hours from Denver.  Finding Solitude has never been an issue. 

The place you are describing is a hot spot on the map.  Not surprising you ran into all sorts of people.  The place I have been fishing has been void of people every year.  My buddy and I usually have various sections of the river we fish to ourselves every day for the week we are there.
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« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:14am by Jizzy Pearl »  

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #36 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 12:49pm
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:12am:
have been out there fishing for a week every summer since 2017 about 2-1/2 hours from Denver.  Finding Solitude has never been an issue. 


I don't disagree that there are some great parts of Colorado, or that's it's possible to get away from the crowds.  A few years back I had a pleasant couple days on the upper Colorado in October, and last fall the upper Poudre was nice in November.   But for me, driving 2 1/2 hours to get away from the hordes makes the level of solitude that I enjoy a little "hard to come by."  I prefer living in a place where solitude in outdoor endeavors is close at hand.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #37 - Aug 19th, 2021 at 1:36pm
 
I get that.   All of my trips out there have been of the 1 week vacation variety.
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