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Western Drought (Read 8907 times)
Further North
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #15 - Aug 4th, 2021 at 10:38pm
 
tannin wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Further North wrote on Aug 4th, 2021 at 11:07am:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


I'm trying to understand how a tax - that would get passed along to consumers - would help?

I like the idea of raising cattle in the east (sort of, because I'm concerned it'd lead to more CAFOs) and can back cutting off grazing on BLM land...but the idea of a tax isn't effective.

Direct action works better than indirect, IMO.


Although taxes are primarily for raising funds, they are also commonly used as disincentives.  If the cattlemen in the west had a tax that made it harder for them to compete with the cattlemen in the east, there would be a disincentive to raise cattle, and thus pump out rivers to raise hay in the western states.


I hate to pick nits (OK, not really, I kinda live for it 'cuz it tends to reveal agendas), tell us, who, exactly, does taxation raise funds for?  I mean...I know the answer, but let's get it out there, make it public...

...and your assessment that there's some kind of actual difference between eastern and western "cattlemen" begs the same question...who benefits?  Feel free to provide detail...

Please note that I'm challenging your assessment, not you, as an individual, because I truly believe that your heart is in in the right place.

Here's a thought, skip the passive aggressive taxation and just write the laws for the results that'd best for everyone.

Bottom line: Let's advocate for what's truly best for everyone, and the environment, and screw the politics.

Anyone who puts politics first should find a deep, dark hole, crawl into it, and die.

Bottom line: Everyone here has the same goals.

What we do with that, and how we choose to present it makes all the difference in the world.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 11:29am by Further North »  

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 8:36am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


FYI.  Grazing isn't free on BLM land...

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-and-forest-service-announce-2020-grazing-f...

And there is already a tax on cattle if it is livestock that is held primarily for sale to customers.

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:04pm
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 5th, 2021 at 8:36am:
tannin wrote on Aug 3rd, 2021 at 11:12am:
One solution - No more free grazing on BLM land, and a tax on all cattle raised out west.  Raise cattle east of the Mississippi where the water is.


FYI.  Grazing isn't free on BLM land...

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-and-forest-service-announce-2020-grazing-f...




At $16.20 per head annually, that's virtually free ($1.35/head/month -- 1966 it was $1.26/head/month).  Try to amortize grazing cost on private land...a square bale of hay was costing about $5/bale a couple years ago (hate to think what it is right now with this drought).  Just like mineral and drilling rights on public lands -- it's a giveaway.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:10pm by GerardH »  

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #18 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:11pm
 
Free?

BLM collects about $15 million per year in grazing fees.

The point here being that grazing on BLM isn't free.
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:12pm by Jizzy Pearl »  

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #19 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:15pm
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:11pm:
Free?

BLM collects about $15 million per year in grazing fees.

The point here being that grazing on BLM isn't free.


My point is that it may as well be free. How many head of cattle are grazing on federal land (the answer is 1.9 million)?  $15 mil is a joke.  Actually, it's bank robbery.

https://therevelator.org/cattle-public-lands/
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« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:17pm by GerardH »  

...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )
WWW http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=14051797  
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #20 - Aug 5th, 2021 at 1:20pm
 
Yup.  Still not free.  Could be worse.  Could be $0 instead of ~$15 million.

I do agree that they could be more since I'm sure the farmers are also subsidized by the government.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #21 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am
 
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation is also used toward croplands.
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:31am by Jizzy Pearl »  

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Re: Western Drought
Reply #22 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )
WWW http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=14051797  
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #23 - Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:33am
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


I couldn't agree more.

I prefer my lawn to be brown so I don't have to mow as often.  Got that mower at the lowest setting in scalp mode.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #24 - Aug 8th, 2021 at 9:41pm
 
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )
WWW http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=14051797  
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #25 - Aug 9th, 2021 at 8:23am
 
Grin  Cheesy
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #26 - Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."
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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:10pm by tannin »  
 
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #27 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am
 
tannin wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm:
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."


Whatchya gonna do though?

I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #28 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am
 
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 9:44am:
tannin wrote on Aug 11th, 2021 at 3:09pm:
GerardH wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 9:07am:
Jizzy Pearl wrote on Aug 6th, 2021 at 8:22am:
It's a more complex issue than just grazing and raising fees or imposing more taxes on cattle.  A lot of irrigation also is used toward croplands.


I will agree it's a complex issue.  On top of growing water-thirsty crops in an arid climate, there are too many people and too much development with the expectation of green lawns, 72-hole championship golf courses, etc.  The west is messed up from top to bottom where water is concerned.

They'd better figure out a cost-effective method of desalination of ocean water in the near future or they're toast.


In the southern Rockies, Denver is a problem.  I visited there a few years ago for the first time in decades.  The sprawl is overwhelming.  They are taking so much water from the Platte River that it is changing the whole ecosystem downstream in Nebraska, where the greatest sandhill crane migration in America (one of the great migrations of the world) occurs.  They are also pulling huge amounts of water from the Ogallala aquifer.  And, if all of that weren't enough, there is a tunnel under Rocky Mountain National Park, bringing them water from the Colorado River Basin.  An economy that requires continual growth to do well is not sustainable.  And, as Paul Simon sang "Too many people on the crust of the earth; the planet groans every time it registers another birth."


Whatchya gonna do though?

I spent a week in Denver area last September.  I liked it out there.   Would move near there in a heartbeat if the right opportunity presented itself.


Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.
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...because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there...

-John Voelker (Robert Traver )
WWW http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=14051797  
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Jizzy Pearl
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Re: Western Drought
Reply #29 - Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:30am
 
GerardH wrote on Aug 12th, 2021 at 10:19am:
Well, if they're going to encourage growth, for starters get rid of green lawns and non-native vegetation that suck up water.  If you're going to live in the west where it's arid, get used to the fact it's arid instead of trying to make it into something it's not.  That's true with all that growth along with the front range.


I don't disagree.  But you and I both know that will never happen.
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